A Seat at the Table: An Appeal for Dialogue and Fellowship - Chris Date

I'm in L.A. at the Rethinking Hell Conference and so far we've had one plenary session with Chris Date. I had the pleasure of going for dinner afterward with several people including Chris and he's a great guy. We discovered a common love for 'Lost' and 'Survivor' so we got to geek out on something other than the fate of every human being who has ever lived.  Theologians don't agree on everything, but it is a fact that the best characters of 'Lost' are Locke, Faraday, and Desmond (And to those who deny this, let them be anathema).

As it turns out, Chris' talk was right along the same lines as the one I'll be giving. Here are some of his talking points (Based on my notes):

He issued a three pronged challenge to Traditionalists:

1. To interact honestly with the actual arguments of the other positions. Traditionalists, for the most part, simply do not deal with the exegesis and arguments that Conditionalists and Universalists are making (For example, evangelical universalists are not liberal pluralists). For people who are convinced of the other views based on the arguments they actually hold, the Traditionalist approach thus far is of little use or help. If traditionalists actually care about changing the minds of the people who hold the other views then they haven't tried hard to do so. Traditionalists are actually pushing people further into the other views and even unwittingly giving support to Universalism through their definition of words such as 'destruction'.

2. To allow conditional immortality a place at the table in order to pull Universalists to a view that aligns with their concept of the beatific vision of the afterlife. They think that in the end there will be no sin or pain or evil or suffering. That there won't be some place on the earth or some corner of the universe where evil sinners writhe in torment. This view is shared by conditionalists, except they think this will be achieve by the destruction of evil.

3. To seek unity for the sake of fellowship and ministry. Even Christian Universalists should be included even if one strongly disagrees with them. We disagree on many issues like atonement, eschatology, the age of the earth, etc. yet keep fellowship. Why is this so different when all  universalists are saying is that the atonement is for everyone, salvation by grace through faith is something that everyone will choose, and that when Jesus searches for the lost sheep he never stops looking until he was found every last one.

He ended challenging conditionalists and universalists to exemplify the same charity and unity in their church context.

It's been a good start to the conference. I'll be posting more summaries over the next week including some of my talking points, which pick up right where Chris left off.

Why write about Hell?

If nothing else, can we agree that this is a pretty awesome wallpaper? I mean, look at it. It's a ghost ship from hell sailing toward a lava waterfall. Maybe there's pirates. I don't know...

I've heard through the grapevine and been approached by a few people this week who are concerned about my views on hell and where they are headed. So far it has been based in confusion and misunderstanding so I thought it would be good to remind everyone why I'm writing about this subject in the first place. Here is an excerpt from my first post on it:

I've been thinking about this subject on and off for over two years and have decided start writing and dialoguing on it. There are a few reasons for this, but I suppose the biggest reason is because there is a lot of fear and misinformation surrounding the subject. I want to be fair, clear, and help bring a charitable dialogue for those who have, are, and will ask questions about it. You can leave a comment, send me a message, or speak to me in person. I am aware that for many this subject is sensitive. For others it's quite controversial.

You can read the entire post here: The First Post on the Last Judgement

I've thought about this.... a lot. I've studied most of the relevant verses in the Bible and read plenty of the books written on the subject. I've searched the web and listened to hours of podcasts. And after doing all of this I'm convinced that one of the biggest problems on this subject is misinformation and misrepresentation. I think the church needs to have a conversation about hell and the vast majority have not yet had it in an open and honest way that takes the challenge of conditionalism and/or universalism seriously or examines the relevant texts from all angles. It simply doesn't happen.

What I'm attempting to do is present all three views clearly, fairly, and without bias. I completely understand why some would get confused and think that I am endorsing a particular view. But please don't misunderstand where I'm coming from. It should read as if I hold whatever view I'm writing about on any post you read because I've taken the time to understand that perspective and to present it fairly and accurately.

I trust that most readers have understood this and hope that this post has clarified any confusion. If not, There are plenty of ways to contact me. Feel free to leave a comment below. Tweet me @jm_schroeder or email me: jasonschroeder@gmail.com

The Torment of Hell in the Presence of God?

This week I have tried to outline the basics of traditionalism, but have also noted where I think there has been an adjustment in its self understanding and reading of Scripture. I do not think that 'mere separationism' (being separated from God) is the 'traditional' traditionalism. I think it is something new within the broader title of 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT). I think that given the omnipresence of God (that he is everywhere), and that if Revelation 14 is used to support ECT where the torment is happening in the presence of Jesus, the lamb, then it seems inescapable that Jesus is present in hell or that hell is present with Jesus. I did some searching to see if there were good rebuttals to this and what I found was, instead, support::

"Is God present in Hell? We have to say that he is. ...Hell is not spatial separation from God, it cannot be because God is omnipresent. No, Hell is separation from the comfortable presence of God. It is the unshielded experience of the presence of God in his holiness and just wrath, and the absence of his mercy and grace."

"Therefore to summarize: God is present in every part of his creation--hell included--yet God acts according to circumstances of each particular place. Most of the time God is present to bless when His presence is spoken of in Scripture, but this is not true in every case, for clearly He is present to sustain as well as punish if needs be."

"In summary, the presence of God is everywhere in some sense of his being even in Hell. "

"Ultimately, it appears that God is indeed "present" in hell, or hell is in His presence, depending on how one looks at it. God is and will forever be omnipresent. He will forever know what is happening in hell."

John Piper:

"[Rev 14] simply says the angels and the Lamb will be attending this punishment. They will be present."
So the meaning of away from the presence of the Lord does not mean that God is absent in every sense, but in those senses. God will be terribly present in another sense. All reality continues to say: In him we live and move and have our being. And it is still in hell that no one can hide from the Lord or escape the terrible countenance of his anger. So God’s power is present in hell as the one who sustains our being and the one who enforces justice and the one who maintains suffering. He is present in all the ways men do not want him to be present and none of the ways that believers enjoy his presence.

RC Sproul:

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

A sort of non-answer:
https://carm.org/can-heaven-and-hell-coexist

https://carm.org/hell

So despite the surface indicators and language of 'mere separationism', it appears that most adherents, when pressed, acknowledge the oversimplification of this popular level understanding. The concept of the presence of God is described and used in different ways and the meaning of separation from God in hell has to do with the benefits experienced by those in Christ being revoked. In every other sense, however, he is very present, even in wrath and judgement and torment.

The Catholic View of Hell

Since I had a post on the Orthodox view of hell, I thought I ought to include a post on the Catholic view. I won't comment other than to say that I find it interesting that the official catechism could be read to affirm the separationism of the evangelical protestants (Although...read my next post later today). I took these excepts directly from the Vatican's website.

1033 "We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."" (1 Jn 3:14-15., Mt 25:31-46)

1034 "Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!""  (Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48., Mt 13:41-42, Mt 25:41)

1035 "...The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs."

1057 Hell's principal punishment consists of eternal separation from God in whom alone man can have the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

How the World Views Jesus

Traditionalism is the dominant position of Christians today and for most of Christian history. This view holds that all those who are unrepentant will be tortured forever after the last judgement without end. I have tried to show how it is difficult to hold to a traditionalism that separates people from the presence of God and do not see it as historical traditionalism at all. I think the nail in the coffin is one of the key texts use to support traditionalism if not the key text. It is found in Revelation 14:9-11 NIV:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,  they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The view that this verse teaches eternal torment is one of the greatest sources of fodder in attempting a debunking of Christianity. It is not only that non-believers see an injustice in an eternal duration. It is not only that they are apposed to torment or torture. It is not only that they think it is difficult to see how anyone could be joyful in heaven/paradise/newcreation even though their sibling or loved one is being tortured. It is that they are aghast that this is being carried out by Jesus (the lamb)...in his very presence.

Traditionalists hold to this because it is what they believe the Bible teaches. They don't find this easy to take or nuance at all. They simply feel obligated to accept it and justify it in one of two ways:

1. They say that God is infinite and so any offence or sin committed against him is therefore infinite and requires and infinite punishment
2. They say that the unrepentant in hell continue to sin without repenting perpetually thereby incurring more and more punishment for all eternity

And here are a couple of videos on the same line of thinking:

The Presence of God is the Orthodox's Hell

Over the last couple of days I've been writing about the traditional view of hell and how it now seems to be the norm to think of hell as separation from God rather than a blazing inferno. A friend of mine had posted a link to my blog on facebook and a friend of her's shared a link in the comments about the Orthodox Church's view of hell and how it stands in stark contrast to this notion of separation.

I personally really like the Orthodox church's take on a lot of issues. Although I don't always agree with everything exclusively, I do think that most of the time their perspective is insightful and near the heart of an issue if not its solution. Essentially the Orthodox's position is that hell is your experience or perception of the presence of God.  They serve as a good commentary because, for them, the notion that one can be separated from God's presence is absurd since God is everywhere. You can read the entire article, but here are a few quotes and some reflections:

"Paradise and hell are not two different places. Such an idea is an idolatrous concept. Rather they signify two different conditions [ways or states of being], which originate from the same uncreated source, and are perceived by man as two, differing experiences. More precisely, they are the same experience, except that they are perceived differently by man, depending on his internal state."

"Consequently, paradise and hell are not a reward or a punishment (condemnation), but the way that we individually experience the sight of Christ, depending on the condition of our heart. God doesn't punish in essence, although, for educative purposes, the Scripture does mention punishment. The more spiritual that one becomes, the better he can comprehend the language of the Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Man's condition (clean-unclean, repentant-unrepentant) is the factor that determines the acceptance of the Light as "paradise" or "hell"." 

"The anthropological issue in Orthodoxy is [to provide] that man will eternally look upon Christ as paradise and not as hell; that man will partake of His heavenly and eternal "kingdom". This is where we see the difference between Christianity as Orthodoxy and the various other religions. The other religions promise a certain "blissful" state, even after death. Orthodoxy however is not a quest for bliss, but a cure from the illness of religion..."

The way the Orthodox understand salvation is a huge part of what is at work here. Salvation for them is being healed from a condition. In their minds, the end goal of the Christian faith is for man to become god. Now before you cry 'blasphemy' it is important to understand their distinction between God's essence and energies. They do not think we become God in his essence. That is reserved for the Trinity. What they are saying is that we participate in the divine nature (as Peter put it) and are one with god as the father and son are one (as John put it). Through the indwelling of the holy spirit we are glorified and become more than human through our union with Christ. Luther had similar views as have many other major Christian leaders, the early church fathers, etc. Evangelicals tend to shy away from this to avoid confusion that we are gods like God is god, but this is our heritage and tradition not to mention the very words of Scripture.

"The experience of paradise or hell is beyond words or the senses. It is an uncreated reality, and not a created one. The Latins invented the myth that paradise and hell are both created realities. It is a myth that the damned will not be able to look upon God; just as the "absence of God" is equally a myth."

"...there is no such thing as "God's absence," only His presence."

 I think that this last quote is a huge challenge to the notion of hell as separation. I mentioned how evangelicals avoid the language of becoming like god (or gods or participation with the divine or the term 'theosis') because they don't want to create confusion. However , in trying to articulate what someone has quipped "mere separationism", it becomes difficult to reconcile with God's omnipresence. If God is everywhere, how can he not be in hell? Articulating a final state that involves God not being somewhere rather than being 'all in all' breeds confusion.

"More often than not, we strive to secure a place in "paradise", instead of striving to be healed. "

"Orthodoxy doesn't make any promises to send mankind to any sort of paradise or hell; but it does have the power...to prepare man, so that he may forever look upon the Uncreated Grace and the Kingdom of Christ as Paradise, and not as Hell."

Keller on Hell...er

In yesterday's post I mentioned that the normal way of articulating hell by traditionalists involves making the unrepentant go there by choice rather than God sending them there. In my estimation it is a move to try and help God's public image. No one likes to think of their God as a 'big meanie' (Or in this case the 'biggest meanie') and it's not like traditionalists have nothing to work with. The Christian god who sends people to hell is also said to be merciful, just, compassionate, gracious, and not just loving, but that God is love. A loving god sending sinners to eternal torment seems like a contradiction.

As an example of what I'm referring to, here are a few excepts from a lengthier quote by Tim Keller a well respected leader in America:

"Hell and heaven essentially are our freely chosen identities going on forever."

"Hell is a self-centered ego going on for a billion years"

"Hell is God giving you the life you want, on into eternity."

"Therefore, in a sense, nobody ever goes to hell in the Christian understanding unless they want to. "

"In some ways, the fairest understanding of the afterlife is the Christian one, which says God gives you what you want. If you want to live with God forever, that’s heaven, and you get it. If you want to be your own person, your own savior, your own lord, that’s hell, and you get that – and you stay wanting it; you do not suddenly change your mind."

The Basics of Traditionalism

Last week I started going into more detail on each of the three views held by christians historically on the nature of hell by covering the basics of conditionalism. This week we'll look at traditionalism.

The three main views historically held on the subject alphabetically:

Conditionalism - The belief that the unrepentant will experience a second death of both body and soul in hell passing out of being.

Traditionalism - The belief that the unrepentant will experience conscious torment of both body and soul in hell for all eternity

Universalism.- The belief that the unrepentant will experience conscious torment of both body and soul in hell until they repent and are saved.

Traditionalism gleans its name from the fact that for most of Christian history it has been the majority view held by the church. It is the official position of the Catholic, Orthodox, and various Protestant branches as well as prominent Christian leaders presently and historically. Many evangelical traditionalists lament the name because it can be misunderstood to mean they hold this view because it is tradition whereas they think it is the clear view of Scripture. To clarify their position succinctly, they most often use the shorthand of 'eternal conscious torment'.

Here are some of the key texts they use for support:

Dan 12:2 NIV "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

Mt 25:41-46 NIV "41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”"

Mk 9: 47-48 NIV "And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where 

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,and the fire is not quenched.’"

2 Thess 1:9 NIV "They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might "

Rev 14:9-11 NIV " A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”"

Rev 21:10-15 NIV "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire."

Traditionalists (aka most interpreters) have concluded that these texts imply immortality (or at least ongoing existence) for the unrepentant on the basis of these texts' terminology such as eternal, everlasting, and forever and ever in relation to aspects of the punishment. It is said that the lost will experience ongoing contempt for God and the saved, perpetual punishment, that their torment will go on forever and ever, that they will have no rest, and will be shut out from the presence of the Lord. In order to assemble these various statements into a coherent whole, they have used various approaches. Historically, the traditional view held that there was a literal lake/place of fire where the lost would burn forever in a fire that could never be quenched or put out, but would last forever. In this model the darkness and sometimes the undying worm were taken as analogies.

More recently, however, there has a been a major shift in which nearly all texts are taken as figurative analogies describing the agony of eternal separation from God. This has come to be known as the metaphorical view as apposed to the literal view. Unsurprisingly there are many variations within this mode of expression ranging from God actively tormenting people to their being full of remorse for their self exclusion by rejecting the gospel. The move is significant in that it allows for a wider range of views within the scope of eternal conscious torment while still holding what many consider the core aspects of the traditional view. This change isn't without it's detractors (most often the literalists), however, who say it isn't right to replace God's active wrath with a sinner's self exclusion, 'torture' with torment, etc.

I think part of the reason for this shift has been the evangelical emphasis on personal repentance and belief in the gospel to achieve personal salvation by key figures such as Billy Graham. He articulated a view of hell that was essentially based being separated from God forever; having no personal relationship vs having a personal relationship with God.  C.S. Lewis also articulates something of this sort in his writings going so far as to say that hell is a place "locked from the inside." However, I think that a larger reason for this shift could have to do with cultural pressure to square the justice of God with the love of God. Answering the question of 'How could a loving God send people to an eternity in hell"' lead to many people coming to the same conclusion: Hell is a ultimately not a place God vindictively tortures people, but a choice made by those who reject him which he reluctantly honours by separating them from himself.

Regardless of whether one takes the  texts about fire, worms, and darkness literally or metaphorically, all traditionalists defend their view of endless torment by appealing to the God's infinite nature, or man's total depravity, or both. Man has sinned against an infinitely holy God of infinite worth, which deserves an infinite punishment.  Man, being totally depraved (incapable of not sinning without divine intervention), will continue to sin in hell thereby incurring more wrath and punishment so that the amount of torment 'due' is never exhausted; payment will be in perpetuity. The good news is that Jesus has paid this in full on the cross in our place and we can receive forgiveness through him because of it. How is this possible since he never went to hell forever? It is because he, being God, is infinite and his suffering is of infinite worth and therefore an infinite payment.

Traditionalists believe that the unrepentant will be tormented in hell and remain conscious and aware of their state without end. They believe this to be a just punishment for sinning against an infinitely holy God.