The Torment of Hell in the Presence of God?

This week I have tried to outline the basics of traditionalism, but have also noted where I think there has been an adjustment in its self understanding and reading of Scripture. I do not think that 'mere separationism' (being separated from God) is the 'traditional' traditionalism. I think it is something new within the broader title of 'eternal conscious torment' (ECT). I think that given the omnipresence of God (that he is everywhere), and that if Revelation 14 is used to support ECT where the torment is happening in the presence of Jesus, the lamb, then it seems inescapable that Jesus is present in hell or that hell is present with Jesus. I did some searching to see if there were good rebuttals to this and what I found was, instead, support::

"Is God present in Hell? We have to say that he is. ...Hell is not spatial separation from God, it cannot be because God is omnipresent. No, Hell is separation from the comfortable presence of God. It is the unshielded experience of the presence of God in his holiness and just wrath, and the absence of his mercy and grace."

"Therefore to summarize: God is present in every part of his creation--hell included--yet God acts according to circumstances of each particular place. Most of the time God is present to bless when His presence is spoken of in Scripture, but this is not true in every case, for clearly He is present to sustain as well as punish if needs be."

"In summary, the presence of God is everywhere in some sense of his being even in Hell. "

"Ultimately, it appears that God is indeed "present" in hell, or hell is in His presence, depending on how one looks at it. God is and will forever be omnipresent. He will forever know what is happening in hell."

John Piper:

"[Rev 14] simply says the angels and the Lamb will be attending this punishment. They will be present."
So the meaning of away from the presence of the Lord does not mean that God is absent in every sense, but in those senses. God will be terribly present in another sense. All reality continues to say: In him we live and move and have our being. And it is still in hell that no one can hide from the Lord or escape the terrible countenance of his anger. So God’s power is present in hell as the one who sustains our being and the one who enforces justice and the one who maintains suffering. He is present in all the ways men do not want him to be present and none of the ways that believers enjoy his presence.

RC Sproul:

A breath of relief is usually heard when someone declares, “Hell is a symbol for separation from God.” To be separated from God for eternity is no great threat to the impenitent person. The ungodly want nothing more than to be separated from God. Their problem in hell will not be separation from God, it will be the presence of God that will torment them. In hell, God will be present in the fullness of His divine wrath. He will be there to exercise His just punishment of the damned. They will know Him as an all-consuming fire.

A sort of non-answer:
https://carm.org/can-heaven-and-hell-coexist

https://carm.org/hell

So despite the surface indicators and language of 'mere separationism', it appears that most adherents, when pressed, acknowledge the oversimplification of this popular level understanding. The concept of the presence of God is described and used in different ways and the meaning of separation from God in hell has to do with the benefits experienced by those in Christ being revoked. In every other sense, however, he is very present, even in wrath and judgement and torment.

How the World Views Jesus

Traditionalism is the dominant position of Christians today and for most of Christian history. This view holds that all those who are unrepentant will be tortured forever after the last judgement without end. I have tried to show how it is difficult to hold to a traditionalism that separates people from the presence of God and do not see it as historical traditionalism at all. I think the nail in the coffin is one of the key texts use to support traditionalism if not the key text. It is found in Revelation 14:9-11 NIV:

A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand,  they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.  And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

The view that this verse teaches eternal torment is one of the greatest sources of fodder in attempting a debunking of Christianity. It is not only that non-believers see an injustice in an eternal duration. It is not only that they are apposed to torment or torture. It is not only that they think it is difficult to see how anyone could be joyful in heaven/paradise/newcreation even though their sibling or loved one is being tortured. It is that they are aghast that this is being carried out by Jesus (the lamb)...in his very presence.

Traditionalists hold to this because it is what they believe the Bible teaches. They don't find this easy to take or nuance at all. They simply feel obligated to accept it and justify it in one of two ways:

1. They say that God is infinite and so any offence or sin committed against him is therefore infinite and requires and infinite punishment
2. They say that the unrepentant in hell continue to sin without repenting perpetually thereby incurring more and more punishment for all eternity

And here are a couple of videos on the same line of thinking: